a site for pissed-off liberals

Friday, December 03, 2004

My little blue bike

Awww.

When I was 5, my teenaged next door neighbor spray-painted his old bike blue and gave it to me. I learned to ride on it. I remember my mom making a big deal about the fact that it was a Schwinn. That meant much less to me than it did to her. When she grew up the Schwinn bike was a status symbol - a sign of middle-class prosperity. For the last two decades we haven't even heard the name. Here's an interesting article from today's Washington Post about the Schwinn bicycle company and its financial condition in the new world economy.

What happened? At the end of the 1970's, Schwinn started outsourcing to Taiwan. The Taiwanese suppliers learned how to manufacture bikes and discovered that they could sell their own poor-quality copies at a much cheaper price. Schwinn could no longer compete. That fact, coupled with new trends like BMX and mountain biking, signaled the end for a once-proud bike manufacturer. A flexible company might have adapted, but Schwinn stubbornly stayed true to it's traditional American roots. In 1993 they went bankrupt.

That in itself is enough to make you think twice about globalization. What's perhaps more interesting about this story is the broader picture - looking at the Schwinn company as it exemplifies the fate of American manufacturing (and the American middle-class) in the late-20th and early-21st centuries.

"As employment rose at Schwinn and other factories after World War II, so did the fortunes of the middle class. From 1947 to 1979, median family income more than doubled, from $21,201 to $45,989 in inflation-adjusted terms. The gap between rich and poor narrowed, as the middle 20 percent of families gained ground more rapidly than the top 5 percent."

Sweet! But...

"[Outsourcing led to broad] decline in U.S. manufacturing, with the sector supplying 5 million fewer jobs today than at its peak in 1979. Meanwhile, family income growth slowed, rising only about 15 percent over nearly a quarter-century. Americans without a college degree -- who make up about three-quarters of the adult population -- now earn lower wages in real terms than they did a generation ago."

The middle class in America today is both smaller and poorer than it was when I got that blue bike 25 years ago. In the words of Richard Schwinn, "We're missing a big, important part of our society. Either everyone has to go to college or everyone has to have very low-paying jobs." And guess what? Everyone can't go to college. With the burden of taxes shifting to the states, funding for higher education is being slashed. Tuition at public universities is sky-rocketing. The cost of attending my own alma mater, the University of Maryland, more than doubled in one year. College is fast-becoming what it was 100 years ago - a luxury for the rich.

Hooray.

What's going on with Schwinn today? Good question. In 2001 a Canadian businessman bought the Schwinn company out of its second bankruptcy. Today, he imports inexpensive low-quality bikes from China and sells them under the Schwinn name. They're a huge hit at Wal-Mart this holiday season.

64 Comments:

Blogger Cara Maria McDonough said...

This holiday season, make a challenge to family and friends to buy American - or at least know a little about the company you are purchasing from. Outsourcing has an impact on so many levels, from worker's rights to our economy to tons of other items. It's effects are astounding if you wade in deep, but it's worth becoming familiar with.

December 3, 2004 1:43 PM

 
Blogger Kender said...

We used to have a saying in teh mountain bike group I rode with. "If huffy made a plane, would you fly in it?" The same thing could apply to schwinns after they outsourced, and maybe even today. I don't know. Is their quality still low as I expect it is?

December 4, 2004 10:52 AM

 
Blogger Angela said...

Even I can tell when I’m being bated.

Ah yes Dan we should return to the day when only upper and middle class kids got shiny new bikes under the Christmas tree! Its awful that on December 25th, 2004, all the littlest Whos in the poorer section of Whoville will find beautiful gleaming 18-speed all-terrain mountain bikes left by Saint Nic. Gosh what is it all coming to? (starting at under $70 at Walmart)

Lets start with Schwinn. Schwinn had short-sighted management, poor productivity, and sucked at adapting to a new business climate. They failed when they had least bit of competition. The general American population didn’t want super expensive quality bikes. They wanted cheap bikes for their kids to ride off-road. I’m not saying there isn’t a niche market who want quality bikes, Schwinn simply failed to identify and sell to that market. Swchwinn failed not because of Taiwanese competition, they failed because of poor leadership. They fathered the BMX style but failed to follow through on it or the mountain biking trend. Excuse me if I’m not boohooing over the rise and fall and now zombification of the elitist cycle company. My little Huffy I bought at Sears in 1995 still rides just fine!

I noticed that you danced around the term “outsourcing”, but that is what is at the heart of what you are really getting at. First of all, outsourcing brings more jobs into this country than it takes out and for every dollar we spend on outsourcing our GDP grows by $1.14. We need look no further than our great friends in France and Germany for the hard lesson on outsourcing. These countries have entrenched unions and rigid labor laws. A recent poll showed that less tan 10% of companies there would even consider outsourcing. Compared to the 60% that do here in the US that might sound great, until you look at the truth about their employment figures. Germany has 11% unemployment!! And France has almost 10%. Both Britain and the US who use considerable outsourcing resources have nearly full employment (from Dec. Economist – It requires a subscription to read online, but I can bring you our copy from home). The DAX has lost a third of its value in the last five years and foreign investment is non-existent. The German economy is mainly based on exports of manufactured goods, and now they are paying the price for it. (Can you say “service-based” economy?) Germany is the perfect example of what you are proposing to do with the US economy!

http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=S%27%298%24%24P17%2B%21P%20%28%0A
http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=S%27%29%28%28%2BQ%21%3F%20%20%20%230%0A
http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000006&sid=aPJbOGzfuS0M&refer=home
http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/11/09/german.economy.reut/

December 6, 2004 10:46 AM

 
Blogger Angela said...

Oh and I know that you are going to blow a gasket on the "near full employment" comment. Stop. Don't even think of bringing up Kanopolis, NC either. Here is what I'm talking about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_employment
In economics, full employment has more than one meaning. To many LAYPEOPLE, it means zero unemployment or underemployment. To economists, it means the lowest level of unemployment that can be sustained given the structure of the economy. In standard macroeconomics, when unemployment equals the NAIRU the real gross domestic product equals potential output.

December 6, 2004 11:09 AM

 
Blogger Angela said...

Anyway, I have another question. Why would you expect inflation adjusted family income to continue to increase over time? I know that sounds trite, but think about it. Shouldn't we expect family income to stay exactly the same when we correct for inflation? Doesn't an increase, any increase indicate a surplus? Please explain to me why the slope of that line shouldn't be zero?

December 6, 2004 11:52 AM

 
Blogger Dan said...

You're not being baited, Angela. You're being annoying.

Hook me up.

"Americans without a college degree -- who make up about three-quarters of the adult population -- now earn lower wages in real terms than they did a generation ago."

That look like a slope of zero to you? If that wasn't a negative slope, I would've never brought it up! What's more, I've shown elsewhere on the blog that the size of the middle class is shrinking while the number of Americans living in poverty is ballooning. The upper class? Unchanged. Yessir. This is a real nice slope of zero we've got.

I'll talk about Kannapolis if I damn well please. The fact is that manufacturing jobs in this country are being exported overseas. Those textile workers from North Carolina are now UNEMPLOYED. That's "unemployed" as in they don't have fucking jobs anymore. They're not theoretically unemployed. THEY DON'T HAVE JOBS. Surely laypeople like yourself don't need degrees in economics to understand that. I definitely don't need one to be concerned about their fate. You may not feel the need to "boo-hoo," but then again you vote Republican. You'll excuse me for noticing if the middle class starts failing because of you.

As to your links -

First article is a summary of findings by "Brink Lindsey of the Cato Institute." That's out. Second article deals with the magic of IT jobs going to India. Terrif! Even our information-technology service jobs can leave!

Last two articles deal with exports from Germany. "Without exports, Germany's economy wouldn't have grown at all in the first half." The first article, from Bloomberg, does seem to conclude that Germany needs a stronger transition to a service-based economy. That's fine, but any contention that manufacturing should be exclusively the domain of the third-world is retarded. I'm glad your Huffy still works. My Korean made Fender guitar became virtually unusable about 2 months after my sixteenth birthday. Today it's worthless. The American-made one I payed 3X more for, aesthetically almost indistinguishable, is a great-sounding and durable instrument that will sound better with age and is not unlikely to appreciate in value.

I didn't read any links supporting your contention that outsourcing brings jobs to the country. If that's true, I'd like to know what jobs they are. They don't seem to be high paying ones, as the middle class is (say it with me) getting poorer. I also don't know how you've drawn the causative connection between a rising GDP and increased outsourcing. Nor do I see anything to show that the increased GDP doesn't turn into dollars for the wealthy alone. I look forward to finding out. Nothing from the Cato Institute please.

As for what I'd like to do to the economy, I don't need you speaking for me. I frankly don't think there's a Bush supporter smart enough to do that. Let me give you a hint as to one thing I'd like to see changed. Make education of low cost and high quality. You want to see higher paying jobs and a successful economy? Start with a smarter workforce. As I stated above, we're moving backwards on that. Thank you, big government Republican administration, for fucking the states!

Finally, I do not underestimate the importance of lower-cost goods. The only point you've made that has merit is that now lower income families can afford cheaper things. That's a good thing. It's especially important considering HOW MANY MORE PEOPLE ARE POOR THESE DAYS.

December 6, 2004 5:00 PM

 
Blogger Angela said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

December 7, 2004 12:11 PM

 
Blogger chris said...

You have got to be kidding me. Angela, with all do respect what do you know about Kannapolis (note the correct spelling)? If we don’t bring up Kannapolis, which by the way has lost a total of 31,000 jobs to outsourcing, then I guess we shouldn’t mention, Eden, Salisbury, Concord, Hillsborough, Rockwell, China Grove, Spencer, Landis, Swannoa, Rocky Mount, Burlington, High Point, Reidsville, just to name a few with textile mills now currently operating overseas. Have you ever even visited any of the above mentioned cities? You should stick to your statistics and googling and leave “reality” to those that have seen the impact with their own eyes. By the way, why have you even heard of Kannapolis? Is it because it was in the news due to the largest layoff in North Carolina history? I would love to see you on main street in Kannapolis giving the economist definition of what it means to be unemployed. I am sure all those people currently without jobs and in foreclosure would really understand. If you ask me I would say YOU are theoretically unemployed since you spend all day blogging. If you haven’t noticed your general uncompassionate, self righteous viewpoints about those in dire straits without jobs in the state that is educating/paying YOU has thoroughly pissed me off. These people spent their entire lives contributing to their local and state economy only to be left behind when it became cheaper to move overseas. I would venture to say that the average hiester driver in Kannapolis will have contributed more to North Carolina than you or I ever will. What are we to say to him, “hey I know you’re 55 and have worked your ass your whole life, but surely you can go greet people at Wal Mart or something”, “or maybe you should have been educating yourself while working 60 hour weeks, raising a family, and taking care of grandma”. And before you mention Wal Mart, which I know you’re a fan of the elderly working there, last year a super Wal Mart opened near Kannapolis and they had over 200 applications for each position. I guess peddling Japanese and Mexican products wasn’t quite as lucrative for those in Kannapolis was it? But hey, “don’t bring up Kannapolis.” You know what I agree with you for once .“Don’t fucking bring up Kannapolis, unless you have seen it with your own eyes” After all, I spent 18 years in Kanopolis (as you spell it) and both my parents lost their jobs to outsourcing, maybe there is someone that “has the right to bring up Kannapolis”. Thanks for your unemployment definition I will read it to them; I am sure it will make them feel much better about things.

December 7, 2004 12:22 PM

 
Blogger Angela said...

Dan, hope you are feeling better.

When I asked about inflation-adjusted family income it was because of a quote you included in your original comment. What the “inflation-adjusted family income” positive slope probably measures is the increase in standard of living. It seems that for 30 years before 1979 there was a greater increase in the standard of living than in the last 25 years. Nonetheless, we have seen a steady increase in our standard of living over the last 25 years. I personally think that manufacturing jobs can’t account for these numbers, the change we see in inflation adjusted family income is probably a measure of the increase of women in the workforce, a trend which had grown exponentially until 1979 and has slowed since (you only have so many women right?)

A Labor Dept report showed that only 2.5% of layoffs were due to outsourcing. Further, a study done by Charles Schultze , argued that IF production needs were being met by outsourcing, a rise in the percent of US imports value relative to the GDP would be seen. But this is not the case. This value plateaued in 2000. The conclusion of his study was: "there is nothing in the data to suggest that large increases in. . . offshoring could have played a major role in explaining America's job performance in recent years. "

A Dartmouth economicsstudy which examined job growth for foreign and US multinational corporations found that between 1991 and 2001foreign affiliates of US corporations increased their overseas payrolls by 2.9 million workers but the same companies added 5.5 million additional US employees. This demontrates that outsourcing adds more jobs to the US economy than it takes away. Sounds terrible huh?

Here is my other point you asked about GDP. The savings from moving jobs abroad creates cashflow that stimulates job creation here in the US. A study by Lawrence Klein at Global Insight examined outsourcing in IT. Outsourcing generated a net increase of 90,000 jobs during 2003 in the US, in both IT and non-IT sectors. The study also found “that the cost savings of IT outsourcing lowered inflation throughout the US economy, increased consumer spending, and "contributed significantly" to the overall growth of US GDP. It said that by 2008, "real GDP is expected to be $124 billion higher than it would be in an environment in which offshore IT. . .outsourcing does not occur. " “ Again this study shows that the popular myth of outsourcing is a flawed target.

The last person to run on the isolationist agenda you endorse was Pat Buchanan. He only carried Palm Beach in the 2000 election. And that was by accident.

December 7, 2004 12:25 PM

 
Blogger Angela said...

Welcome to the discussion Chris. I looked up the population of Kannapolis (my apologies for the misspelling) and there are only 38,245 residents. I suppose if 31,000 of them were laid off that was an enormous blow to their economy and their lives. I also looked up some of the reasons for those layoffs and as it turns out Pillowtex went bankrupt and laid off 3,688 residents of Rowan and Cabarrus counties. Please correct me if I’m wrong but it seems that Pillowtex was in decline for more than 20 years. This article points out some great issues about outsourcing as it pertains to Pillowtex, be sure and read the entire thing. Here is an important point you don’t want to skim past:

“Pillowtex made sheets and towels -- items still subject to quotas and tariffs when made abroad. Other factors besides imports contributed to Pillowtex's problems, such as heavy debt, weak retail sales and consumers' preferences for low-price goods, which are mainly coming from low-wage countries.”

Chris I am truly sorry for the heartache that this has put your family through. I flippantly used Kannapolis, because Dan has brought it up before as an excuse to sidestep facts he did not want to hear. I apologize.

December 7, 2004 12:59 PM

 
Blogger Dan said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

December 7, 2004 1:38 PM

 
Blogger chris said...

Angela,

Glad to see you were able to teach me something about my hometown. What arrogance! My Mom was VP for Pillowtex, my Dad was plant manager. Like I said before outsourcing was a huge part of pilowtex mill closings. I spoke with them, yes a human being, before writing this. I didn't just google some quote offf the net. If you choose not to believe someone who worked there and lived there then your narrowed mindedness is even worse than I expected. Not sure when you Republicans are going to accept that someone else may have had experiences that could allow them to know something you don't. My point still stands, houses are forclosed, forsale, unemployment is through the roof, and people are running out of unemployment and health care benefits in Kannapolis. All and I mean All of these jobs are in Pakistan, Italy, Korea, China, etc.. If you don't believe that then should get my mom on here, she visited everyone of the above mentioned companies the last year Pillowtex was in exisitence. By the way it isn't Pillowtex, it is Cannon Mills bought by Pillowtex. Cannon Mills have been in existence for over a hundred years until now.

December 7, 2004 2:02 PM

 
Blogger Dan said...

2 of your links didn't work. I don't know what Global Insight is and the last time I checked Charles Shultz wrote Peanuts. (Don't "blow a gasket." I know who Charles Shultze is.)

"A Dartmouth economics study which examined job growth for foreign and US multinational corporations found that between 1991 and 2001 foreign affiliates of US corporations increased their overseas payrolls by 2.9 million workers but the same companies added 5.5 million additional US employees. This demontrates that outsourcing adds more jobs to the US economy than it takes away."

I'd love for you to explain how that demonstrates that outsourcing adds more jobs. All it says is that American companies hired 2.9 million overseas workers and 5.5 million American ones. You have not established a causative link. This could well mean that the American companies would have otherwise hired 8.4 million Americans instead of only 5.5 million. It could also mean that 2.9 million jobs that would've payed Americans well went to China and that the 5.5 million simultaneously created here paid much less. It could mean that they would've created 5.5 million new jobs in the US no matter what and paid their American employees better had they not outsourced 2.9 million other jobs.

"Nonetheless, we have seen a steady increase in our standard of living over the last 25 years."

I don't know how you came up with this. Is that faith-based math? The middle class is poorer in real terms than it was a generation ago. If standard of living is a relative measure, and it is, most of America has not seen a steady increase in its standard of living. In fact it's declined.

Here's another quote from the second FactCheck article you linked to:

"Yet, even though offshoring accounts for a relatively small portion of U.S. unemployment [since 2000, not 1979], it deserves our immediate attention. For one, the pain and suffering of those who lost their jobs are real. Moreover, for those who still have jobs, offshoring has contributed to the stagnant wages and declining benefits."

American manufacturing has been, as I said, on a steady decline since 1979. Not 2000. Your FactCheck links were about Kerry and Bush. My post about the broad decades-long decline in manufacturing jobs and the loss of wealth for the American middle class was not an indictment against George Bush and his handling of outsourcing in the last four years. When I start talking about that, you're welcome to start arguing it. I have pointed out that outsourcing is a fact. It continues to be a very real problem for those people (like textile mill employees) who've lost their jobs.

For the third time, what I am really concerned with (and you've failed to address), is that the disappearance of quality jobs - like those in manufacturing - that don't require college education is being coupled with the fact that college, THANKS TO BUSH, is increasingly unavailable. That is pretty obvious and pretty serious. It means poor and uneducated Americans and by extension a weaker country.

Of course, given that so many people voted Republican this year it may not really be a problem. Even without higher education I'm not sure we could get any dumber.

December 7, 2004 2:08 PM

 
Blogger Angry American said...

Since this is my first comment I will warn you that I will not sound as eloquent as you. Also, I will not google anything so my thoughts will be authentically mine and not influenced by the most recent snippet of information that seaped into my brain. Finally, I actually have a blue Schwinn bicycle. I bought in in college (circa 1988) because it was the exact same thing as the TREK bikes that all the fraties were buying but literally half the price. A few replacement parts over the years and it still works great. Based on all the pessimistic comments abour the Schwinn company maybe it will start increasing in value now.

Anyway, I have a few questions. First, why is it GWBs fault that college is so expensive. I am still paying off my undergraduate loans and I started in '87. It felt pretty expensive to me back then. But you know what, I worked a part time job through college, joined the Army Reserves to get the GI bill (the toughest, but best decision I ever made),and took out loans to cover what I needed. So, I guess I have a hard time feeling sorry for people. Don't get me wrong. I plan to start the college savings as soon as I have a kid because you're right....it's freaking expensive. I guess my point is people cannot be lazy! You may have to work a little harder than your roomate whose parents pay for everything. Also, you may miss a party or two because your pounding through the woods freezing your ass off carrying an M16 or walking behind a lawn mower on Saturday afternoon taking care of Mellancamp's crib. I

Second, I think I remember Bush talking about boosting community colleges. This might help lower income or single parent individuals get the education they need to get a better job.

December 7, 2004 3:12 PM

 
Blogger Angry American said...

Since this is my first comment I will warn you that I will not sound as eloquent as you. Also, I will not google anything so my thoughts will be authentically mine and not influenced by the most recent snippet of information that seaped into my brain. Finally, I actually have a blue Schwinn bicycle. I bought it in college (circa 1988) because it was the exact same thing as the TREK bikes that all the fraties were buying but was half the price. A few replacement parts over the years and it still works great. Based on all the pesimistic comments about the Schwinn company, maybe it will start increasing in value now.

Anyway, I have a few questions. First, why is it GWBs fault that college is so expensive. I am still paying off my undergraduate loans and I started in '87. It felt pretty damn expensive to me back then. But you know what, I worked a part time job through college, joined the Army Reserves to get the GI bill (the toughest, but best decision I ever made), and took out loans to cover what I needed. So, I guess I have a hard time feeling sorry for people who say it's too expensive. Freaking step up, get to work, and stop pissing and moaning. Don't get me wrong. I plan to start the college savings as soon as I have a kid because you're right....it's freaking expensive. I guess my point is people cannot be lazy! You may have to work a little harder than your college roomate whose parents pay for everything. Also, you may miss a party or two because your pounding through the woods freezing your ass off carrying an M16 or walking behind a lawn mower on Saturday afternoon taking care of Mellancamp's crib. Bottom line.....ITS WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO TO GET TO WHERE YOU WANT TO BE!

Second, I think I remember Bush talking about boosting community colleges. This might help lower income or perhaps single parent individuals get the education they need to get a better job. I don't remember Fairy, or I mean Kerry, mentioning any of this. But then again this is a possible solution and it seems people here just want to bitch about the problems like a bunch of teenage girls that just got their period instead of coming up with solutions. Look, I knew back in high school that the days of being successful with only a high school diploma were over. There are also alternatives to universities and community colleges. Just pick up a freakiing phone book.

Third, dealing with the issue of the disappearance of quality jobs. My thoughts are...I don't know. My dad lost his long time electrician job last year. It sounds like outsourcing is a hot issue right now. I guess we need to figure out why it is more profitable for companies to outsource. 1) Lower wages to foreign workers? How long before they start demanding more money? 2) Less benefits paid out? How long before they start asking for dental and on site child care? 3) Paid vacation? yada yada. Outsourcing won't go away until the government makes it more expensive for the companies to go overseas. I'm not smart enough to know how to do that but if they are taxed out the ass for bringing products back into the US maybe that would be a start. I know, I know Bush is big on taking care of big industry and is unlikely to do this. But, really, who can become President these days and not take care of his/her friends who run these big companies.

Farming has also taken a pretty big hit over the past few decades. I heard this week that the US will import more produce than we export.....what the hell?

Finally, I feel like I have to defend the fact that I voted for Bush this year. It comes down to priorities. No one is going to know all the answers or do it right the first time all the time. But when it came to issues like the war on terror Bush had it right and Kerry had it wrong. When Kerry said he would mount a "sensitive war on terror" that pretty much sealed it for me. These sub-humans need to be hunted down and destroyed in place. Second, when the issue of social security came up Kerry had no reply and sounded like he had never even thought about it. Bottome line, SS is in trouble. It needs to be fixed and Bush had a plan. Is it the right one....I don't know, but it's better than no plan. Third, I thought the "Anybody but Bush" slogan was weak and disgraceful. If that is the best that these Kerry supporters could come up with then he must not be qualified to be the Commander-in -Chief. Fourth, goddammit I just can't get the Kerry-anti-war stuff out of my mind. I have images of that bitch Hanoi Jane in my head and alot of my trainers over the years suffered because of her.

With that said I have some serious issues with the Bush administration. I too am concerned about the environment. I think the administration is weak on immigration issues. And, I think the education policy is flawed.

December 7, 2004 3:52 PM

 
Blogger Dan said...

Welcome, Angry American.

The reason that Bush is responsible for increasing tuitions is that he has passed the tax burden from the federal government to the states. Unfunded mandates, including "No Child Left Behind," cost the states money. The states can either raise taxes or cut services as a result. They prefer the latter and their first target is usually higher education. The cost goes more and more to the students. Increasing tuition at state schools is epidemic. That includes places like UNC and U-Md. Maryland's tuition increased three times within one school year.

As hard as you had to work, why vote to make it even more expensive for successive generations of students? I've been following the Maryland situation closely. Students trying to work their way through have been forced to drop out mid-semester because of rising tuitions. Those that stay will end up owing much more than they were prepared for.

As far as I'm concerned, offering up lower quality community colleges as an alternative is a way for Bush to acknowledge the problem without really addressing it. It's like saying "let them eat cake." The Associate's Degree you get at Durham Tech won't get you into grad school. At very best, it'll save you two years of college expense, but in return you'll get a lesser experience and a lower-quality education.

I think we can agree that America's emergence as a superpower following WWII is due in no small part to the GI Bill, which provided college educations for thousands of Americans who would've had no other opportunity. In return, they became a strong and successful middle class that payed back the country (again!) as higher-income taxpayers and helped build its status as the most powerful economy. Why move backwards?

December 7, 2004 3:58 PM

 
Blogger Dan said...

The second post wasn't up when I replied the first time.

You want terrorists hunted down but you voted for Bush? Over three years after 9/11, Osama bin Laden, the guy Bush wanted "dead or alive," is still out there and releasing tapes. These days, Bush is "truly not all that concerned about him." Richard Clarke and other international analysts believe that there are now many more anti-American terrorists in the Middle East than there were before 9/11. Al Qaeda has a new home in Iraq, and the insurgency could keep Americans dying there for decades. Here at home there are a lot of security measures the Bush administration has refused to take. If “sensitive” means using your senses instead of just your guts, then I’m all for it. I don’t feel safer at all.

What I think it really means is asking why terrorists hate us and trying to stop them before they even think about attacking. Bush insists that Al Qaeda attacked because “they hate our freedoms.” That's bullshit. They attacked us because we support Israel against the Palestinians. They attacked us because we’re in Saudi Arabia. There are some pretty obvious reasons why we’re hated in the Middle East. Maybe if we'd started addressing them we could limit the threat of terrorism. Instead we answered 9/11 by making up some intelligence against Iraq and using it to justify an invasion. That just pissed off the Middle East (and the rest of the world more.

Bush’s plan for social security is to take it away. A child born in this decade is going to receive 45% less benefits than his or her parents. That’s fixing it? That’s demolishing it. We both saw Kerry flub the Social Security question during the debates, but if you voted for Bush because of his performance then we weren’t watching the same thing.

I agree that “Anybody but Bush” was disgraceful. It’s disgraceful that so many Americans, myself included, have that little faith in their leader. It’s disgraceful that we think his record of failure is that monumental. Dude, I tried to make sure he didn’t get reelected. I volunteered and I talked to people when I could. I agree that we don’t talk about solutions enough on the blog, but I’m curious to know what you’d propose we do besides talking. Armed insurgency? This as a place to learn enough facts to argue and also to try and understand the other side. It’s not a secession.

December 7, 2004 6:23 PM

 
Blogger jessica said...

This is gonna be a sloppy one...
The reason you can buy a $70 bike at Wal-Mart is because a 10 year-old in Indonesia who gets one bathroom break a week and is paid 15 beads an hour built that bike. I would make sure there are no child-size finger parts stuck in the gears next time you hop on the saddle.

December 7, 2004 7:51 PM

 
Blogger Richard Nixon said...

Chris, are you proud of yourself? Takes a BIG man to pick on a girl, especially after she beats the hell out of you in an arguement with FACTS instead of emotion. Instead of picking on girls why don't you go to the bathroom to make sure your manhood is intact. Don't bother responding I wont be reading it.

December 8, 2004 4:19 AM

 
Blogger chris said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

December 8, 2004 5:58 AM

 
Blogger Angry American said...

Well said Dan.

I am trying really hard to see your side of the situation. For the social security issue, which was addressed very well by Richard Nixon in another string, I think we both agree that SS is broken...right? I believe you when you say my kid will have 45% less benefits than people these days. In a very selfish manner I am also worried about myself. I hope that I won't have to depend upon it because after all it was never meant to be an IRA...right? So, I guess the basic problem is there were about 16 workers to support every retired person in the late 30's, in a couple decades there will be about 2 people working to support all the retired people. Solution? Retire later? or Soylent Green the elderly? (does that age me?)Or let people invest their money in a way that ensures money will be available, ie. low risk funds, CDs, cardboard (everybody uses it).

The Iraq situation. I don't have enough time to make every arguement that I need to. I respect your opinions but I disagree with one major premise. That is that the US made up intelligence to go to war. Please remember that Sadddam used WMD (mustard gas, etc) in the war with Iran and also on civilian Kurds. The pictures were all over the news a few years back. So, Iraq DID possess WMD. That cannot be disputed no matter how hard soft minded liberals want to. So, after a decade of playing reindeer games with weapons inpectors, who are getting rich off book deals now, no WMD were found in Iraq. Now, instead of putting bumper stickers on my car that say "Bush Lied" I think "Oh crap, where the hell did the weapons go". They were there, they were employed, and now they cannot be found. Hmmm....how about Syria, Egypt, Iran, Lebanon. I don't have time to go on but consider this question...Why do the Iraqi's hate the US when the coalition forces relieved them of a tyranical ruler who took power through violence and then killed all who even talked about opposing him and tossed them into mass graves? Does that make sense? Look, I wouldn't like an occupying force in my country either but if I did decided to rise up against them I wouldn't target my own people.....haven't they seen Patrick Swayze in "Red Dawn"...that's how its done! Finally, does it make sense that insurgent terrorists can so easily integrate into Iraqi society so well as to evade coalition forces if they weren't there to begin with? Also, please remember that Saddam payed Palastinian homocide bombers' families $25,000....That sounds like government sponsored terrorism to me. So, government sponsored terrorism + WMD = bad situation.

Finally, I think Kerry's proposed "World Test" was bullshit. The President needs to have the balls to tell "old Europe" and the UN that if they don't support the US then so be it. We managed to form a coalition of about 30 countries that did understand the need for war. Look, nobody is "pro-war". Unfortunately however, in our current state of human evolution, we cannot afford to be "anti-war".

December 8, 2004 6:10 AM

 
Blogger Dan said...

Red Dawn was kick-ass, but it's no Breaking Away. Watching the cutters kicking those same TREK-buying frat guys asses is a friggin' populist Democrat's dream come true. Now if we could just them some scholarships.

Here's what John Kerry said during the debate:

"The president always has the right, and always has had the right, for pre-emptive strike. That was a great doctrine throughout the Cold War. And it was always one of the things we argued about with respect to arms control.

No president, though all of American history, has ever ceded, and nor would I, the right to pre-empt in any way necessary to protect the United States of America.

But if and when you do it, Jim, you have to do it in a way that passes the test, that passes the global test where your countrymen, your people understand fully why you're doing what you're doing and you can prove to the world that you did it for legitimate reasons."

The single phrase "global test" ("global" as in "universal"), was ripped out of context and used to portray the Senator as a weak-willed diplomat afraid to exercise American authority. That's bullshit. Kerry wants an American President to prove to his countrymen "why you're doing what you're doing" (present tense) and to the world "that you did it for legitimate reasons" (past tense). Looks to me like he's saying "show America why you're invading then explain it to the world later."

As to social security -

Clearly there is a problem and it needs to be addressed, but the way to fix it isn't to get rid of it. If your shower was broken you wouldn't say "OK, no more showers." One thing that will have to happen is an increase in retirement age. I don't expect that people my age will see full benefits until age 70 at least, 8 years older than the first generation to receive it. As Angela has pointed out, that coincides with an increase in life expectancy, so it does make sense. Other real reforms should certainly be considered.

Social Security isn't a retirement plan, but an insurance plan. Doing away with it guarantees more impoverished seniors, and the cost of their well-being and medical care will be borne by you and me.

Iraq -

The weapons were destroyed. The inspectors did their jobs.

The Iraqis hate the US because we've killed a lot of their families (estimates as high as 100,000 civilians, but I suspect really much less) and made a lot of them less safe. If I was a normal citizen that lived in Fallujah I'd be pretty damn mad. Saddam was a piece of shit and I'm glad he's gone, but we've clearly failed to do the next step - restore peace and safety to Iraq. I don't know how many years it'll take before that happens. In the meantime, I can understand why they're angry.

December 8, 2004 7:52 AM

 
Blogger Juan Pablo said...

Dear Suckers,

I was born here, so that makes me an American, but I'm not sure I want to be. My family came here recently and were not born here, so they can no do what I can do here. But still, there are things that I do not have the opportunity to do that other people have because I can not get a good education....yeah I know this is where the idiots start saying I have to work harder and stop being soo lazy. You suck man!! My parents work damn hard, many hours each day so that I can go to school and get a good education, are they lazy? I work and go to school, but you know what, I'm not going to get the opportunities that other people get. So, maybe that is ok, but don't call me lazy sucker.

You are the lazy fatheads. You know why so many Americans are fat now, not because they are lazy, you have to work hard at getting so fat. No, Americans are getting so fat becuase they are selfish and don't want to give up anything to other people around them. Sucker fat people who are selfish, that is the modern America of today. This is supposed to be the land of opportunity. Well BullShit suckers. All the conservatives tell me to vote Republican, that it's the party of values and strong leadership. Tell that to all the dead soldiers from my community. Strong leadership, what they hell is that? If the republican leaders are strong, how come they are not in Iraq fighting?

So, sucker, I don't need you to do my work for me, that's insulting. I don't want you to give me money, either, that's insulting too, fat head. Keep your stupid tax cut and instead buy me new books that I can read, so that maybe I can have the same opportunites as the rich kids in my school. They can keep there expensive cars and fat asses. I'll keep working, and maybe you suckers will realize that America is about opporunity and not about being a fat fuck.

December 8, 2004 12:40 PM

 
Blogger Angry American said...

Dear Juan Pablo,
Please explain to me what opportunities you don't have because you're not one of the "rich kid's". Maybe high school has changed but I don't seem to recall the rich kid's getting ledgible books while us lower class kids had the dregs of the book storeroom. I am glad to hear your parents work hard everyday and contribute to their community. I am humbled by the sacrifice made by the fallen soldiers from your community. But if you have a problem with the US please leave and quit making excuses why you will eventually fail in life. You see the term lazy doesn't just cover those "fat" Americans that sit and collect a wefare check. It also includes those that are so paralyzed by their negative outlook on life that they are doomed to fail. So, when you exit my beloved country please don't let the flag hit you in the ass. Oh yeah,....can I get some more salsa when you get a chance?

December 8, 2004 2:00 PM

 
Blogger chris said...

angry american,

"It also includes those that are so paralyzed by their negative outlook on life that they are doomed to faiL"

First let me say, I can understand how you feel about those "lazy" and "cry-baby" americans not willing to do what it takes to get ahead in life. I feel the same way everytime I drive through durham and see thugs and pregnant women wondering the street. In fact, I have very little sympathy for the adults. However, I pose to you the question, "where do you think this negative attitude comes from, or better yet what is the derivation of a positive outlook? Are we born with it?This "boot strap" idea does not pertain to those thousands of young kids who have never seen the light of a positive/supportive comment come their way. Opportunities do not always come in a monetary form. In my opinion, the foundation of a successful life always begins with a positive home environment. These children have to worry about many things we did not, i.e being murdered, dinner, neglect, lunch money, drugs, no dad, taking care of their little sister, etc... Now I am not saying that some people can't pull themselves out of a bad home life, many people do. However, many thousands of kids are born without the proverbial "boot strap". What do we do about them? Punish/Ignore them for being born in the wrong place? After all, we can't choose where and from whom we are born can we? I don't claim to have the answer, but I don't feel we should assume an entire people is lazy. To do so would be to give up on an entire population of kids. I will finish with something Dan said to me once "who is to say that the next Ben Franklin mind isn't sitting somewhere just waiting to be fostered". Do you think he will have a better chance of making it in Chapel Hill or South Compton? I beleive that in the long run it behooves us all to make sure he is found. After all I like my bifocals.

December 9, 2004 6:12 AM

 
Blogger Brian P. O'Connor said...

I agree with Chris's sentiment that boot straps are given out at birth, and some are better than others. I've been listening to NPR today and they interviewed a Jesuit priest working with gang members in L.A. The Jesuit has been working in the barrios for many years and has observed a pattern. Young kids grow up in a single parent home or with parents who are tripped out on drugs, or their parents just don't care about their well being and the kids end up on the street. The kids are turned out onto the street because they have no home life. Once on the streets, the young kids, 10-13 years of age, are actively preyed upon by gangs that need new recruits. The gangs promise a family that will look after them. What the kids get in return is a life of crime and drugs and either jail or death. Where are the bootstraps here?

The Jesuit priest is trying to offer these kids some bootstraps. He has started a program called Homeboy Networks (or something like that). He brings street kids in one at a time, and literally cleans them up. He gets their tattoos removed and gets them doing community outreach and jobs. The Jesuit’s motto is this: The best thing to stop a bullet is a job.

So, here is my question and this is something that I was talking with Chris and Bill about the other day. Do we as Americans, have a responsibility to those around us in our community? I think most people would say yes, especially when it comes to opportunities like education. So, what about these kids in L.A.? Do Americans living in New York, North Carolina, Indiana and Oregon have any responsibility to help these kids or kids in their local communities? Where do the boundaries of community end?

I love this country and I believe in community responsibility. I'll do for my country and not ask what my country can do for me. Soldiers in Iraq are patriots and so is the Jesuit in L.A. who is helping his fellow Americans. I think we need to remember that as Americans, we have a responsibility to give back to the community who have helped us achieve our positions in life. If you think you’ve done it all on your own, try looking at your life from the vantage point of the barrio kids in L.A. or kids across the U.S. that are like them. Do you still think your boot straps are the same?

December 9, 2004 9:16 AM

 
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Wealth and social standing DOES make a difference in the quality of your high school education. Rich kids, or those with country club connections, get advantages in lots of junior high and high schools. It is often subtle as in being automatically tracked for tech school instead of college. The decision gets made without reference to grades or hopes or dreams. Lots of kids carrying good grades get shuffled off into non-college prep classes. If the parents don't understand the difference they aren't able to complain. Even if they do complain often the high school councilors will loftily point out that their child just 'isn't suited to college'. It happens and it happens a lot.

I can easily recall at least ten kids personally known to me who were outright told that college would be a total waste of time and money. I met most of them in college where they did quite nicely, thank you. I had it happen to me. Two different high schools told my parents I didn't have the brains for college but that I might manage to squeak through a business school to be a file clerk or junior secretary. The second school continued this tune even after I score high on my SATs and missed National Merit Finalist by one point. In my high school yearbook of the thirteen National Merit Finalists and Letter of Honor winners only the five whose parents were social leaders in the community are named. One councilor flat out told me no college would accept me and continued to hammer at me despite my having three college acceptance letters in hand. I had parents who were sharp enough and well enough educated to see what was going on and who fought for my rights to be college tracked. I had a father who was willing and able to come down in his three-piece suit and literally pound on the principal's desk until my tracking was changed. Sadly, in my case what seems to have changed the councilors' minds was not my grades, test scores, or my father's tirade. Instead when they found out where my father worked and what his title was they made a sudden reassessment of my family's social status. My experience was long ago but sadly several young students I know of have been caught up in the same tracking trap in the last few years. Toss race and ethnicity into the mix and it adds up to a lot of students whose college options disappear. We are all the losers for this.

Ever noticed that some kids have no trouble getting into AP classes even when their grades aren't really up to it? And that other kids cannot seem to get placed in AP classes despite high grades? Let us not forget that many schools serving 'lower class' and 'ethnic' neighborhoods seldom offer AP classes. Without AP classes a kid's chances of being accepted to a four-year college is low. Why are there few to no AP classes at these schools? Because everyone knows those kids can't possibly qualify…

There have long been these assumptions that only kids from the upper social ranks have the cultural backgrounds to do well in college. It is a Class thing. It is a racial thing. It is an ethnic thing. Those people don't deserve to go to college. Get them a spatula and put them to flipping hamburgers.

BTW, the kids in the non-college track often do not get the same textbooks as the college track classes.

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